Australia's Top Van.

Please don't take this as Bullying anyone as it is not my intent. I apologise if it comes across that way.

How do we determine what is Australia's Top Van?

I think that this is an interesting Topic for discussion.

What is Australia's Top Van? I have a Poster at home that says AlleyCat is. I'm sure that there will be those who agree and many who disagree.

AlleyCat would have to be one of, if not the Best Known Van in Australia. The media coverage it has received in Australia and overseas bears testament to that.

How do you choose Australia's Top Van? What are the Parameters?

Is it the number of times it has won the Van Nats? Not everyone who own's/owned a Top Van has taken it to a Van Nats to be Crowned Champion and that leads to a whole other argument, any Judging System is subject to the Skill Set and Bias of the Judges.

I'll be Blunt: This topic is not intended to create an argument. If one starts I will deleted it and if in my opinion it is serious enough I will Ban the User/Users responsible. NO BULLYING!

In your opinion what are the necessary criteria to be Australia's Top Van?

Please list them below.

it is still being built!!! hahahahahaha, give me a chance

For me Australia's Top Panel van would be based on quite a number of things and the final answer would come down to a personal preference of what van would I like to open the roller door of my shed to.

First of all it would have to be practical.... can you use it?

This in its self would have to be broken down into a number of sections.

Can you jump in and go for a drive?

Is the rear interior able to do the most important thing of a panel van is based around?

These two things are a must for any van worthy of the title for me.

Now the next problem, is the van still around?

If so what condition is it in now?

With this and more to consider I will have to spent sometime coming up with the answer....

Jon

Woah, just throw a hand grenade in there Rusty...........actually I find this a really interesting topic, and something i've wondered about. So I'll waffle on a bit.

The difficult thing would be agreeing on the specific criteria for assessing vans against each other, to take the emotion out of it. (like, what's the greatest song ever written).
I'll ask my obligatory dumb questions now: Do the Van Nats (and the show scene in general) always have a structured judging framework, or does it vary from show to show in relation to the club or commitee hosting? Are judging notes ever released at the end of shows to make the process more transparent?

I think it would be healther to debate the content of judging criteria before a show (kinda like what this thread is doing now), rather than argue about the results afterwards.

WOW! Can of worms here....

For shear knock out factor on debut the '83 Van Nationals, "Alley Cat" with the V12 will be hard to beat. It was Australia's Top Van then, no question!
But I'm sure it wasn't every bodies cup of tea! It certainly wasn't the best detailed. But it set the standard for others to catch when it came to innovation and mystique. People have lost respect for what it was and the ground breaking this Van did. Such a pity it didn't contest more Nationals. I certainly wouldn't have built it that way, nor would I have built Street Legal, Foxy Lady, Checkmate, Jade, Wizard or any of the others the way they were put together by their respectful owners. But, I don't wish it to have been any different for each of them. You just stand back and admire what's before you and THEN pick out the bits you reckon are crap! 'Cause that's the Aussie way.

Really it doesn't matter what Australia's Top Van is. It matters that there is/was quality Vans to choose from.

Like Jon, I want my Van usable.
1. You must be able to take it for a drive (in fact, if you don't drive to/in and around the show you should loose points).
2. For me the rear interior must be usable. Gone are the days of nic-naks and miniature lounge suites and non usable stripper poles.

The Vans that inspired me from an early age:

Green Knight. I saw this Van in Mildura in 1979 and I was blown away.
Scorpion. (WA) This HQ wasn't the best, but it mesmerized me as a 12 year old with it's angel fur interior.
Van Rat. Big Block Power!
Hallucination. Kids Fantasy
Total Eclipse. Super tidy, Black and LTD. Nice interior trim in it's day.
Centrefold. Street Van with full naked chick murals. So cool....
Mid Summer Dream II. Sydney Legend
Dream Warrior. Big Van
Fire & Ice. Local to my home town. Multi award winning interior.
Alley Cat. It was the show stopper.
Wizard. Always close to the top.
Foxy Lady. Got to love a boat anchor with a roof chop.

Other notables: Checkmate, Trouble Maker, The Judge, Fat Pays Hearse, Sheer Heart Attack, Jade, Mr Damage and so, so many others.

After much thought and consideration I say that !@#$%^&* is Australia's Top Van - no doubt about it!
.. and that said.
I would never have built it that way even if I had all the money in the world. It was for someone else to build and for me to pick judge the guts out of it!

Regards, Smooth

WOW!

I must say Guys I'm really impressed with how everyone has approached this. Very constructive.

OPINION is the Key. The intent is not to create a set of Rules or a new Judging System, or indeed to pick Australia's Top Van.

There are often more questions then answers and it certainly forms part of this discussion.

I have been very fortunate to meet people who I consider Vanning Legends, several of whom are on this Forum.

I had the pleasure of having a lengthy (I mean that in a positive way) written discussion with on this topic with a Legend last night. He put forward a lot of very positive and enlightening points. I say enlightening as I never had the experience of attending the Van Nats before the mid 80's when I moved to Wodonga. I have certainly never entered a Van in the Nats.

I am assuming (because I haven't taken the time to research) that the Van Nats Trophy Title's haven't changed over the decades (perhaps James can correct me) as the wording for the Number 1 Van is "Australia's Top Van".

I am on a short break and look forward to exploring this further with your input.

I've been very fortunate to be a judge at various Nationals in the 1980's and 1990's along with other Van dedicated shows during the same period.
I've privy to the judging methods and in 1992, for the Holbrook Van Nationals I got to control and oversee my new judging system that I put into place. Seems after talking with Fres for 5 hours the on the weekend on Pit Straight, Mt Panorama this style of system is still pretty much in place (well, when NSW runs the event and judges at least). It does differ quite a bit from those used in the early eighties.

We spoke at length about what could and what should be changed for the "potential" NSW run Van Nationals in 2015.

Being able to judge some of the best Vans in Australia (the world) I have seen everything from missing wiper motors to engines without internals. Had to make hard (but fair) decisions between Vans that judged very close in categories. I've even after events explained to owners where and why certain things need to improve to complete against the best. Been attacked for refusing to judge unfinished Vans in primer.

It is an experience!

Some top quality show Vans I've never had to opportunity to judge, so I don't know the Vans as well as others. Another thing is, most of Australia's Top Vans were never in the same place at the same time. Either because they are from different time periods or they were in different stages of builds. Always trying to get one up on the opposition.

Regards, Smooth

James
Could you please give us a basic run down on the judgeing system.
Not that I care for it much anymore I just want to enjoy my van now.
But 20 yrs ago at Wodonga Mic's silver knight scored a 7 for a traumatic fitted to an original 4 spd van.
And I was given a 4 for a toploader/after market shifter all painted up (but not very well.spraycanned)
My van is also a factory fitted 4spd as well. I just find it hard to comprehend that going to all that trouble of reengineering the g/box crossmember modifying the floor and tail shaft new bellhousing
Hydrolic clutch compared to a conversion that just bolts up like it came from the factory...

PS. James
Is it true that to get the interior judged that the doors must be opened
And for undercarriage the van must be on stands of some sort.
But I do know you get points for fire extinguisher .first aid kit .tool kit etc.

Interesting topic Rusty and even more interesting watching it develop.

Here is a quick run down on how judging from my sheets work.

Say each category is out of 10 and this example is about fuel lines.
Each judge is told if it is factory and perfect it is worth half points. I.E: 5 points out of 10 if undamaged and clean, factory clamps etc.
Subtract a point if no attempt to clean I.E: Black hose no armorall etc. 4 out of 10
Deduct major points if fraying or cracked (safety hazard). 1 out out of 10 (or zero if leaking)
Add points if braided cover 6 out of 10
Real braided hose 7 out of 10
Chromed clamps, earl's/speedflow/aero or aircraft screw-ons etc. 8 or 9 out of 10
10 out of 10 would be awarded if it was something totally new and unseen before and blows your mind (keeping safety are a major factor).

This same system is repeated for every single category for the whole car. It does require common sense and a good general knowledge of show cars.

As for judging interiors and undercarriages.

Yes, you must open the vehicle or make the "correct" judges aware you can open and close the car at will for judging (if in doubt, open everything).
Lifting the car for undercarriage judging is to your benefit. You want to show something you must make it easy to inspect and judge or mirror it up so it can be seen.

As for results about years gone and whatever system was in place I can't really comment.
I can tell you a top loader modified conversion has the potential to beat a tri-matic conversion into a factory car every day of the week.

Lets take a look at my system.

Gearbox:

Factory to car or make? 5 out of 10
Deduct points for anything but spotless. 4 out of 10
Non factory to car or make? 6 out of 10
Conversion quality (includes crossmember) add for good/subtract for bad. Plus or minus 2 points. (Subtract major points if dangerous) Cracked welds, missing bolts. no speedo cable, perished rubber mounts, leaking transmission lines etc.
Detailing, add points for quality and effort. (Remember what your awarding and compare between one car and the next).

Hope that gives you some insight.

Regards, Smooth

Thanks James
For the insight to the judgeing system.I think I'll just keep pushing the who gives a rats ass button
And keep enjoying my days at looking what people are building.
At least if the finalised judgeing sheets are given back to the owners they can see the areas to improve on.

Yep, giving back sheets does give insights but it creates all kinds of other issues.
Like people comparing and wanting to argue judges decisions etc. The judges I feel, do their best within a very limited time and must concentrate their time to the likely category contenders. We pretty much know who these are before judging begins. This can mean some of the emerging quality, though lesser cars aren't judge quite as thoroughly.

Was a time when only "total" scores were given to the entrants. Not sure what they are doing currently.

The other issue is building a car to maximise a judging sheet. This happened and some very ugly things were being awarded trophies. A little like the episode of The Simpson's where Homer got to build his ultimate car. Stood back and looked at it and said nah, I don't want one because it was truly horrendous.

I totally agree Vanning should be about the good times and not a big worry about winning dust collectors. If they come your way it's a bonus.
Now, if it was like the old days with prize money and valuable items up for grabs it might be a different story.

Regards, Smooth

With the amount of money ploughed into cars these days the average person
Can't compete with the mega buck corporate cars.
I remember aHQ at motor x no wipers heater windscreen moulds window rubbers .
A quality car detailed to the max and extremely desirable coupe .but no way could you drive it on the
Road which you all know is 99% of the fun.....


Rusty I really don't think you will get a definitive answer as this subject goes on
Just more questions And a bigger can of worms.......

Is it possible to determine what a top van is?The common method seems to be by a group of judges at a car show or by popular vote by the punters.Do you
have to go to great lengths with engineering,artwork,concept,etc...to "create" a unique piece.An owner has a mental photograph of what they want to
duplicate and then starts the process of building it,overcoming hurdles,the countless hours of head spinning, non stop over thinking and in some respects
hoping they can pull off that original idea and hope that others will like it.It is a personal thing and other people can't see that part,only the finished van.
I get influenced by how practical the van is,how much work the owner did,creativeness,engineering and can you throw your stuff in the back and head off
for the weekend.Even if it is a mega dollar machine.
I think a true vanner will look a lot deeper at another van and not be distracted by shiny things, and try and picture themselves in that van.
Still it will boil down to a popularity contest in my opinion,but for my way of thinking ,a low dollar van can be just as good as a high dollar van.


Look beyond the bling.

This is what I have done in my last rebuild
Kept it simple practical and most of all serviceable for ease of maintenance
Not gone to the extreme of dismantling 75%of the car to fix a stupid fan belt..

Mad Van wrote:Is it possible to determine what a top van is?The common method seems to be by a group of judges at a car show or by popular vote by the punters.Do you
have to go to great lengths with engineering,artwork,concept,etc...to "create" a unique piece.An owner has a mental photograph of what they want to
duplicate and then starts the process of building it,overcoming hurdles,the countless hours of head spinning, non stop over thinking and in some respects
hoping they can pull off that original idea and hope that others will like it.It is a personal thing and other people can't see that part,only the finished van.
I get influenced by how practical the van is,how much work the owner did,creativeness,engineering and can you throw your stuff in the back and head off
for the weekend.Even if it is a mega dollar machine.
I think a true vanner will look a lot deeper at another van and not be distracted by shiny things, and try and picture themselves in that van.
Still it will boil down to a popularity contest in my opinion,but for my way of thinking ,a low dollar van can be just as good as a high dollar van.


Look beyond the bling.

Well said mate I could not agree more

Regards Tony.

"leave em"wanting more!

Here's the answer your after Rusty as to what is Australia's Best Van.

"Soon to be supercharged"
We have different definition on the word "soon" ...

How old was John when he bailed out of Checkmate?

Regards, Smooth

sinbin wrote:"Soon to be supercharged"
We have different definition on the word "soon" ...

How old was John when he bailed out of Checkmate?

Regards, Smooth

He was around 23 when he won in '82, so around the 26ish mark I reckon that'd make it '85 Dave had it at the '87 nats.

He did buy a supercharger for it off a guy in Sydney that was apparently importing parts and cars from the states at the time.
The supercharger never arrived and when John went to Sydney to find out what was going on, he said there was a heap of people there looking for their parts, cars etc. The guy did a runner with everyone's cash and left them high and dry.

The Zodiac wrote:He did buy a supercharger for it off a guy in Sydney that was apparently importing parts and cars from the states at the time.
The supercharger never arrived and when John went to Sydney to find out what was going on, he said there was a heap of people there looking for their parts, cars etc. The guy did a runner with everyone's cash and left them high and dry.

John said he lost quite a few dollars on it but there was guys there that had lost 4 and 5 times more on cars they never got so he didn't feel so bad...............

Great topic Rusty
i think Australia's Top Van is simply the Van with the biggest Impact "Nationally" !!! so basically the current Nationals Winners are a far cry from Australia's Best Van, i have no doubt the cleanliness & presentation of the modern winners is better but the current streak of winners will never have the impact of a Cat, Checkmate, Street, Innervisions,Beast, Msd, Misty Blue... need i go on ! The reason current winners will never have an impact is they are judged on presentation & cleanliness not like past ledgends which were judged on modifications & inovation & imagination ....

Well said Al 
But in saying that due to current RTA bull the imanganation side of the vans like alleycat invader2000
Would not be passed these days.Due to the fact that they'll say a monza front doesn't meet ADR's. But yet in saying that just how many cars are trailered to shows that are supposed to be 
leagaly registered.just so they don't get dirty.
I remember something from street machine a few years ago saying that their elleite class was to be body colour under the car.
And street class was to be to at least 70% original factory underneath.Which to me seems to be quite fare .Especially to those cars that are driven on the street regularly..

Checkmate passed rego in NSW, than went through VIC rego and I had to blue slip when I got it back here in NSW with a Trans Am front fitted the whole time so I believe they can be regoed, I guarantee Alley Cat gets full NSW rego again too.

Great points Al, but honestly have you had a real close look under Street or Innervisions? They are clean and tidy as todays winners.