Judging vehicles

Here's your place to make suggestion on how vehicles should be judged.

As was stated by others in another thread... Modifications V stock is a difficult issue to deal with.

But there has to be some aspect to the judging system that prevents a brand new... Show room... Van (Vannet) from winning over a Van that the owner has poured money, heart and soul into... making it into a dream machine.

So different categories is the fair way to go?

Stock unrestored
Restored
Custom Modified
etc

Sure, you can have different catagories, but in the end you either have a top ten (example) or you don't. If you do then the points they get in their catagory go up against the points of van in the other catagory and the one with the most points win so long as the point system is the same in all catagories , this would be hard to do but could be done. This also says that these vans in different catagories will not be judged against each other, which then is also a little bit unfair.

Once again for example, the FJ could win its catagory and a standard Sandman restored may get more points and there for a stock van could beat a modified once again, its a hard one and i doubt there is a fool proof answer, maybe only a better answer to what we have.

James

You could open up a can of worms on this subject,the first thing is the judges really need to know what they are looking at and know how to judge a vehicle the right way not just a car that maybe be their favourite or he or she is a good friend yes it happens.

I can speak with experience as I was a show judge for a while,now been a qualified painter I would judge exterior the other judge was a trimmer and the other an engineer.I have known of judges that are a butcher bricklayer and a store manager just because they may have built a nice car does not make them the best judges and yes it was myself and the other two guys that replaced them.
These guys caused a lot of upsets and it was alway's the same cars that were getting the gold,the stuff that was getting it was not deserving compared to what was,here is an example and this is what done it for me to say enough is enough,there was a EK was not restored and still had the original nitro cellulous laquer brigade red and the guy was showing it for his grandfather that owned it from new,well when it came to presentatin time we all thought it would get best standard paint.

Well you should of heard the uproar when it went to a 48 ford that was painted in candy apple red,the question was asked have you guys got this right and that should be best custom paint?but the answer was no that is right that was disgusting,so I put my hand up to be a judge.

So what I am saying is to judge it fairly and to be honest and should look at using guys qualified to be judges, it worked for us and if there was a entrant that would come to me and say hey I was judge poorly by you when he got his sheet back I would then go with him or her and show why and point out the problem I found the other judges did as well and most entants were thankful of that.

Regards Tony.

It's great that you took the time to go back and show the flaws. Few judges would do that and it's a shame they don't do it more often.

I agree with people who actually know what they are doing judging vehicles.

Sure can be a can of worms but without asking the questions we will never be closer to a better way of doing it.

I have also been a judge at several shows judging on presentation (I am a detailer) and I would say the most important thing you can do when judging cars is to use a points system and judging sheets, then make those sheets available to the entrants so they can see wher a particular judge has scored them well and poorly.
Also had a suggestion given to some organisors that will be trialled next year will be that the head judge will address all entrants at the friday meet and greet and explain what he as a judge is expecting to see and how he will be doing the judging sheets.
Neil

I think if you were really serious about this you'd need to sit down as a group and discuss what changes needed to be made and what certain criterias had to be met in each section. Even if you came up with a better system, you cant make event organisers use it if they believe the way they are doing it is correct and better suited.
Jon and I have discussed judging several times and I can guarantee if MV's bid to host the nats had've been successful the results would've certainly been different.
The other problem you face is different people have different ideas of what's more important, which creates different results at different events based on who did the judging and what system they used to judge it.
I cant understand a system that rewards cleanliness over obvious flaws, at the 2006 van nats I seen 2 vans make the top ten with obvious paint and body flaws and edge out 2 vans that were a lot better finished off.
On the weekend we seen a van with crows foot paint, bog shrink backs etc edge out a van just as tidy but with nicer paint.
Hard to explain unless you grab the judges and give them a "please explain".
I've entered other car shows and can tell you the van nats seems to be judged a lot different to them, I've never judged a car show but spent a lot of years judging scale model shows, so I probably notice the smaller details that others might miss.
I enjoyed judging but never judged a catagory I was in, to avoid a conflict of interests.
Perhaps get 2 members from each club present to have some input into judging??? Might level the playing field a bit??

Who knows, but I think it's something that'll take a long time to get right and a lot of input from people who know what they're looking at.

Cheers
Rob

Would really like to know the flaws with the fj for it to get flipped to second. I did like the escort, so don't get me wrong.

A lot of the time it comes down to picking all the flaws in the vehicles and the one with the least wins.

Heres a link to the Summernats judging guidelines.

http://www.showticksecure.com/summernats2011/VenueNet/_uploads/FCKeditor/file/Judging-v5R.pdf

we always have a blast at the van meets, wonderful to have so many interested in keeping the dream alive, but alas, we will always display not show,because of the discussion judging brings up. They are only ordinary people given a job to do, give the judges a break, there will always be someone who thinks they know better, if you don't like the decision don't be a part of the competition. we are on this forum as vanners, lets spread the word to get more young people interested in restoring where they might have been conceived

Fair call, but i would never judge a cake show cause i know nothing about them. Just cause i like the taste of cakes does not make me an expert thats qualified to judge them.

Gees Andrew not all of us are vanners......................Vandil and myself are van enthusiasts!!!

call it what it is rob, we all have our name for it, so past definitions

Judging is always contentious as it is subjective and open to bias or ignorance or plain stupidity. The system - people ( the judges ) try to be fair and balanced in most instances - but they lack skills in many instances - not always though. I have built an award winning van and been on the end of good and bad results. you need judges who understand what the vehcile was like standard and then understand the mods/work. So many car/vans - hard to know every vehicle inside and out. Some judges did not even know how to judge a well executued standard van/car that was very very clean

Categories - this can work really well, but at one street machine show I was thrown into exhibition class, Another - commercial class. Not good. Yet on the other side at one street machine/van show I walked away with top street machine, top van, top holden van, top custom pain, top motor drivetrain, top exterior and peoples choice - up against cars wher previously I was in the aforementioned exhibition class. work that out!

I have judged when my van was off undergoing rebuilds. I was tough - but consistent and really enjoyed it. The guys got their score sheets back - and I would always make myself available to chat to them afterwards and I would give them tips on areas they could improve - easy things that got points and did not cost big bucks. I knew because I had been there and did it.

The judging sheets were a good way to learn and to make change - for example if you were being consistently missing marks in an area - you looked at how to improve.

Having an average local mechanic judge drivetrain was not a solution - as I saw some who had no idea. It was the ignorant judges that was the most frustrating and sometimes you think why bother.
thats my 5 cents worth - I could go on and on - but hey, I dont want to bore you to death

Fuzz - The Wizard

As i said in my earlier reply Rob, get people together and nut it out, whether an answer will come out of it who knows, it may take 12 months to sort it out.

Doesnt sound right Rob if you say that if MV had hosted the Nats the results would have been alot different. You can't say that unless you are the one to be judging, you have just made it sound like you have your mind made up that it would be different and that sounds bias. Until the day arrives for the judging to be done no one can say how the results will be. Also there would of been different vans show up had it be held in NSW as you know yourself many MV members from NSW did not attend this year but i am sure would of had it been held in your state and maybe some other interstate vans may not of turned up.

The main thing about judges is they have to be consistent from one show to another. Judging sheets are available at many shows and have been in the past at the nats. The biggest problem there is when people start comparing their sheets and you get, how did he beat me in that? The judges at the Nats for the last few years have always been available to talk with entrants on where they can improve their scores.

I did not even see the judges judge this event or know who did it because i was walking around the market half the day, but i am sure they wern't judges who have been through the judging system. As Serendipity said, give them a break, at least they gave up their time to actually do the judging where as many didn't want to. Maybe the answer is to not have judges and let the public decide what they like.

Im curious, what is the difference between a vanner and a van enthusiast?

vanner065 wrote:Maybe the answer is to not have judges and let the public decide what they like.

Thats why i like peoples choice

Quotes from another thread...

VanGoes wrote:

I am hoping to make my van show worthy... whether I win awards or not doesn't mater. But after reading James response... a thought stuck in my head. What if someone bought a Millennium van off the showroom floor... pushed it into a truck and dropped it off at a show??? How could it loose with the current judging system???

I don't have an answer to how to change the judging system... but can understand the frustrations of the participants and spectators.

Jason (VanGoes)

The Zodiac wrote:

vanner065 wrote:Show standard, what is it? Is it to a standard you are happy with and like to show people or is it show quality? To me, if you have spent the time on it to improve its finish from standard then it is show standard, remember people like different things. I would not call my van show quality but it is show standard.

James

I agree James but I just word it slightly different, you call it show standard and I call it a daily driver/neat streeter.
My trusty WB was as nice as a lot of the vans on display on the weekend and it's my daily driver/work vehicle.
I'm just building my vans to keep me happy, I'm not real worried about what other people think of them.
Cheers Rob

My opinion...

'Show Quality' ... A condition above average.
'Show Standard' ... The standard set by the previous years entrants... the better the condition of the Vans in the competition... the higher the standard.

Cool if people want to show their pride and joy... but to win... I'll have to put in a whole crap load of effort to get my van anywhere near the top ten. AND that is how it should be.

Unless I win Lotto and can take a year off of work... (Drools at the idea ) ... My van won't be ready for the 2012 show. It might be road worthy and if so, I'll take it (if I can make it)... but finished to winning standard... not likely.

To any and all restoring and customising vans... The way I see it... the higher the standard set by those that have gone before us... the grater the satisfaction in winning (and the less heart break, knowing we lost to vans of such high calibre). I look forward to competing... but I'm building my Van for me... If others like it... BONUS!

Jason (VanGoes)

VanGoes wrote:

To any and all restoring and customising vans... The way I see it... the higher the standard set by those that have gone before us... the grater the satisfaction in winning (and the less heart break, knowing we lost to vans of such high calibre). I look forward to competing... but I'm building my Van for me... If others like it... BONUS!

Jason (VanGoes)

Well said

Also in today's age of technology,
Van's that are judged should be given there judging sheets, either on the day like Fuzz suggested or online maybe for everybody too see.

This would stop our usual rants that happen after most van shows, state or national.

I for one would like too see were i lost the points & where i could improve them for the next show.
That's if i'm chasing them.
The judges need to be more accountable especially when vanners throw hundreds, or thousands of $$$ and man hours getting there vans to 'show' or 'showing' standard. Vanners get an entry fee to enter & punters also pay(nationals), so it's not just a chook raffle that cost $2- down at ya local.

"I think your 'picking-up what I'm putting-down"

Another angle, maybe we need to rewrite or update these so said judging rules.....
Maybe a new list would be helpful & could be submitted to VCV.

Anybody got any ideas where too start this list?

Cheers Al.

Judging was a contentious issue in the 70's as it still is today seemingly, I too have been both a custom show van owner/builder and been invited to judge as well, although not whilst showing my own van of course. Time lapse was both a show van and a daily driver as a lot of vans were in the 70's, etc. So one of the issues causing concern for a lot of guy's in those day's were that individually hand crafted custom vans which were daily drivers were fairly often pitted against more commercially built/sponsored and or sometimes trailered vans, No offence implied resulting in obvious road usage undercarriage as opposed to, spotless not a mark any where to be seen were judged the same way from the same sheet, Which is not Judging apples to apples So to the best of my knowledge they made these into unregistered not driven category to level the playing field.Note I am not criticising trailered vehicles per say but I do think allowances should then be made in Judging. Also in those day's they sometimes even used a noise meter to determine peoples choice by recording the cheering noise level of the public when they announced the names of the vans in the running of peoples choice and or van of show if the judges thought it was too close a call and that all seemed to work fine as I recall. at the end of the day it is very hard to come up with a system everyone is content with but I would be happy to partake in any round table discussions on the subject Cheers John.

vanner065 wrote:As i said in my earlier reply Rob, get people together and nut it out, whether an answer will come out of it who knows, it may take 12 months to sort it out.

Doesnt sound right Rob if you say that if MV had hosted the Nats the results would have been alot different. You can't say that unless you are the one to be judging, you have just made it sound like you have your mind made up that it would be different and that sounds bias.

Would be good to have a uniformed judging system that could be used at all future van events and than everyone knows what's involved in judging and what gains more points if you wanted to try and chase them.
Years ago you got extra points for fire extinguishers and first aid kits, if you didn't want them in your van than I dont think you should be penalised for leaving them out.

As for our results being biased because they would've been different.............I think the results that came out of the show were biased as have been the results of most van nats to date. (I could give you a heap of examples).

A national recognised van judging system would be great, but will probably never happen due to the logistics of it and the differences of opinions. Nice to dream though............

Until than as Al suggested when people keep getting dissapointed with the outcomes of shows perhaps display only is an option to aviod dissapointment.

Cheers Rob

I think the unhappiness comes from not knowing how the vehicles are/were judged. To look at the judging sheets and see what makes a winning van a winner would be the settlement for the dispute. Perhaps the entrants could ask vcv for the sheets to have a better understanding. Perhaps vcv might post their criteria for judging. I already posted a link for the summer nat's judging.

vanner065 wrote:Im curious, what is the difference between a vanner and a van enthusiast?

Comes from the saying

'If you ain't a vanner, you ain't sh!t'



Cheers Jon

MajesticXX7 wrote:It's great that you took the time to go back and show the flaws. Few judges would do that and it's a shame they don't do it more often.

I agree with people who actually know what they are doing judging vehicles.

Sure can be a can of worms but without asking the questions we will never be closer to a better way of doing it.

Troy,that is what we liked to do was to hang around it stopped a lot of agro and say 90% of the entrants were good about it and thankful the other 10% you could not educate

I don't know how the system works with the van shows in vic but after reading comments maybe it is time for a change,but I still beleive that every entrant should still be given back the scoring sheet not just wondering what they lost points on and where to improve on it.

Nothing wrong with opening up a can of worms at times,it is the only way to get problems soughted and brainstorm what you can acheive for a better outcome.

Regards Tony.

vanner065 wrote:Im curious, what is the difference between a vanner and a van enthusiast?

A simple answer would be......

Us and them.

They're like chalk and cheese, the only common link is vans.