Judging vehicles

us and them??????, i am disappointed, never thought i would hear that on this forum, cheers for now.....

Bugger
Now i'm confused am i a.
Us or a Them or just a ford driver

us and them...

In general this is the feeling I have had for years now...

As a rule I have felt like we are 'them' (MV frond upon) and they are 'us'. By 'us' is ment like we are the vanners of Australia and its our way and don't ever have a say or try to have an input into how the van scene will be in Australia in the future.

Not by any means am I trying to stereo type all 'vanners' out there, just the ones I and the early MVer's have had dealings with in the early days.

Hope this has cleared a few things up.
Jon

serendipity wrote:us and them??????, i am disappointed, never thought i would hear that on this forum, cheers for now.....

Hey Andrew,
without dragging up the past, it's been a us and them since 2007. MV has always been excluded from the van scene, initially this worried me and other members but now I dont see it as a bad thing.
It's given us the freedom to do our own thing without constrants and politics associated with the old scene and build up our own scene that embraces helping each other more and promoting vanning to new people.
Politics has played a major part in vanning since day one and state vs state rivalary which I think has divided and destroyed it. MV is the ONLY NATIONAL club and we dont think state borders should be a barrier between friendships and helping each other build and enjoy our vans.
The choice was never ours to be a us and them, but looking back I'm glad they made the decision for us.
Let's keep the MV spirit alive and kicking, build some schmick ar5e vans, enjoy each others company and most importantly leave the politics and bullsh1t at the door.

Cheers Rob

Everyone has raised really good points and yes - there was always a rivarly between states.

I agree with Rob - there should be a national judging system. But he and you others are right - everyone wants to add their own bits and you will never get agreement. Even our government cant get things right. Look at education differences between states. It is about trying to come to some compromises

Back to judging - that is where this started and I will refer to larger shows. One flaw is the judges hand over the judging sheets to the dedicated people behind the scenes ( this happened all the time in my days ) who add up and then rank them in darkened corners where the cone of silence was lowered. The judges can have inconsistency as you can lose track of your benchmark as you progress through the field. The other fact - when you start - what is your initial benchmark - that is lets say the first one you see has an engine swap - lets say a chev 350 with a 671 blower. Judge goes wow - and gives 10 out of 10 as it used to have a 6 cylinder in it. He then goes around the field and suddenly finds a car - say Alley Cat with the V12 jag or Wizard with a 429 ( Like who is dumb enuff to put a ford motor into a holden ). How can the judge award more than 10 when 10 is the cap - given a heap more work to drop a jag or ford motor in. The judge cannot go back and mark down the prior entrant/s

So - one option is the judges are given score sheets prior to judging so they get their heads around the criteria. The judges then should spend the first hour to 2 hours actually walking around and making side notes - but not judging. Then they have an understanding of the field, they should have noted the standards and are better armed to fairly mark across the field based on the field. Their job often finishes when they finish the last judging sheet and it disappears into the flurry of activity and thrashing calculators. The FLAW - the judges should be there at the compiling of the scores and they should review the totals based on their notes. They should then ensure the ranking reflect their opinion.

if you score by benchmarking the field on the day - then you get a fairer result.

If you score based on what may be a perfect van/car - well what is it? is the ultimate to drop a V12 ferrari motor in? You have to have realistic benchmarks to stimulate interest and keep the show passion going.

The disadvantage a generic score sheet presents with is its inability to recognise cars/vans that are more standard but exceptionally clean, straight and immaculate

This then rears the head of classes of cars - you simply cant place all vans/cars into the one pot.

Yes to score sheet handback and verbal feedback to entrants if they want it.

In my years of showing - issues always occurred. I think solving the carbon tax issues, climate change etc will be easier. And guys - I showed but loved cruising - even though cleaning and maintaining it was a job and a half

cheers

Fuzz

"us and them", interesting.

to tell you the truth, MV had some knockers at the start because of trouble from a couple of people, but that has all gone now and i think there is no hassels amoung people now. As time has gone by and forums like this and others have made it easier to get to know each other and also meet at some shows. It is all so much more friendly now but there are still disagreements on things because we can all give an opinion. Personally i do not like the "us and them". We are all van owners so there for i say we are all "us", "them" to me is the people who s primary interest is other styles of motoring. "Us and them" is not uniting the van scene and that is what we should all be about. MV has not always been excluded from the van scene, now is apart of the van scene and i think many people admire what MV has done for vanning in this country as well as the effort of all other clubs. Keep it positive amoung everyone and don't think MV is out there and not taken seriously and not recognized by others, as it is.

Vanner...some one who owns a van and has a huge interest in the sport
Van enthusiast...some one who may or maynot own a van and has a huge interest in the sport
thats my thoughts

James

Thanks James

Forgot to comment on the vanner and van enthusiast. from where I sit - you have hit the nail on the head.

also - agree on the us and them - amazing how communication and friendships break down the barriers. After all - it is all about a similar passion - vans!

Fuzz

vanner065 wrote:"us and them", interesting.

to tell you the truth, MV had some knockers at the start because of trouble from a couple of people, but that has all gone now and i think there is no hassels amoung people now. As time has gone by and forums like this and others have made it easier to get to know each other and also meet at some shows. It is all so much more friendly now but there are still disagreements on things because we can all give an opinion. Personally i do not like the "us and them". We are all van owners so there for i say we are all "us", "them" to me is the people who s primary interest is other styles of motoring. "Us and them" is not uniting the van scene and that is what we should all be about. MV has not always been excluded from the van scene, now is apart of the van scene and i think many people admire what MV has done for vanning in this country as well as the effort of all other clubs. Keep it positive amoung everyone and don't think MV is out there and not taken seriously and not recognized by others, as it is.

Vanner...some one who owns a van and has a huge interest in the sport
Van enthusiast...some one who may or maynot own a van and has a huge interest in the sport
thats my thoughts

James

Thank you James for setting this straight.

Lets look to the future of vanning, MV is a force to be reckoned with, and is now reconised as such. Lets keep our spirit and use it to promote and unite vanners/van enthusiasts.

Let the past be, try to learn from the mistakes, and work together to revolutionise the vanning scene for the benefit of all. We will all be better off.

I think that MV has done alot to bring vanners together, just look at the growth of MV in the past 12 months alone! I am sure that with a united front - a vanning round table can nut out a judging system that works well, submissions from past greats attending the reunion would be a great start.

Vanner?
Van enthusiast?
I have owned a van for over 12 years(sucks when you say it like that) but would only be classified as an enthusiast, now I own and am building up a van so now a vanner!?
Nope none of the above
I am just me!

If the word "Vanner" has become a dirty word... RECLAIM it!!!

There are many "Van enthusiasts" who tinker... But I have dreams and if I don't start making an effort to bring them to reality... I'll be a spectator leaning on a walking frame LOL

So I hope to be more than just an enthusiast and a real "Vanner" with a Van I have restored and customised to my liking. If Vanner means anything else... bugger it... change the meaning.



Also... just a thought... If Majestic Vanners is the only 'National' Van mob... then why not have everyone submit what aspects they would like to see in a judging format and then invite other clubs to submit the same... then have pros and cons of the points raised and over time refine it to something that gets across the board approval.

There are enough professionals from all fields of the motor industry (welders, painters, interiors etc) and experienced judges from many events... The biggest value that I see MV having is bringing all these people together to help one another with their builds and to discuss their passions... why not build a judging system that might outlast us all??? May take years to refine to something everyone can accept... but should be worth the effort?!

Hi Everyone, Having read most of the comments on the subject, it seems to me that without prejudice Vanning in general Would benefit from an overhaul in judging practises (as Soooo Much Has Changed ) and first and foremost, judges for the most part give their time freely to help promote Vanning, so for that we should be thankful.... however I do think that where possible when choosing the people, to carry out the difficult task of judging we should all try and ensure that when selecting judges, they are armed with Passion for vans/cars and Product knowledge, Understanding what it takes to hand build these vans, as well as the engineering and ingenuity and hours that result in what they see before them. And because there is such a difference between a stock or mild van as opposed to wild custom/highly modified van, there is a need for more categories to cover these differences, I.E. if there was two really outstanding vans, lets say two H.Q.Holden Vans in a show with 17 other vans, ranging from tidy dailly drivers to fully customised , if the body,paint,interior, engine bay,wheels,etc were all of a very high standard but van 1/ was completely stock and back to original in every detail as in concourse condition. and van 2/ was the same level of finish also concourse condition, but modified in every area,such as body,paint,interior,engine bay,wheels etc, then without the appropriate categories the modified van should and must win because so much more work has gone into van 2/ but in contradiction this would not be fair to the guy with the stock concourse just as beautiful van, but in a stock way he should therefore win best stock category, and so on. I think it is paramount to get this balance right especially as there is now more styles 70s,80s,classics, nostalgic restorations of epic Icons,to the letter resto's of genuine sandman,drifter,sundowner,gypsy, etc etc. I Hope I have covered it all without any prejudice, as none intended whatsoever. Having said that at the end of the day we are ALL in this FOR THE LOVE OF VANNING I reckon,and this is what I believe M.V.is all about. personally I am very happy that the younger guy's and lady's have picked up the ball and ran with it to keep the Vanning dream alive to what it is today I also believe Vanning is increasing in popularity too. well done to the original founders of M.V. and everyone whom followed since to make what is a great group of people with a wealth of knowledge and a passion for vans I feel honoured to have been invited into M.V. and I am a proud member of the group Cheers John.s Time Lapse.

Thats pretty much it John. Thats why some times there are modified and restored sections so these vehicles can be separated on their merits so as not to be penalised for eg, one not liking mods and the other not liking stock lines etc. yet these vehicles could still be outstanding in all areas.

Lets not just give MV "all" the raps, there are many van clubs out there doing the same thing, some or most i should say, are not forum based and are very vigilant on the streets, yes as are MV. Times have changed and the internet does wonders for all sports but nothing beats being seen on the streets.

Keep on vanning

James

vanner065 wrote:Lets not just give MV "all" the raps, there are many van clubs out there doing the same thing, some or most i should say, are not forum based and are very vigilant on the streets, yes as are MV. Times have changed and the internet does wonders for all sports but nothing beats being seen on the streets.

Keep on vanning

James

Dont take this the wrong way James but I think MV has done more promoting/publicising and getting vanning out there to the masses in the last 18 months than the others have in the last 5 years.
As for being on the streets, you'd be amazed how many MVers drive their vans every day, not once every two months on a short run and how many other daily drivers are MV stickered or how many people Freestyler has hounded!
It's all about embracing vanning and attracting new members, it's not a big enough community to start excluding or alienating people.
The more people we encourage and help, the bigger it gets, the quicker it grows, the more people talk, the easier it gets and the bigger the scene gets!!!

Cheers Rob

I'm not taking it the wrong way Rob. And don't take this the wrong way either, but being a founder of a club, one can be very one eyed, i know i was when i started Diamond Valley Vanners 22 years ago. Yes MV is very out their in the last couple of years. DVV every month without fail have an event and we make sure it is done. Look at Sunstate in QLD. I believe they are the most active club overall by farand it is nothing for them each month to have a minimum 12 vans on each run they do. They do van displays on a regular basis and have also held 2 van nationals in the past7 or 8 years with another to come, pretty hard to beat. Sundowners are always posting on sites the runs they do also. Lets not just try pump up our own clubs to sound like they are the best because we do this and we do that, there are many things behind the scenes that clubs do to promote vanning. Lets look at it as one nation of vanners trying to make the sport more popular and all of us are putting the word out there. Not everyone on here are MV members, like myself, they are just on the site to communicate with other vanners and to share knowledge with those who want to know about our vanning history.

James

We could argue till the cows come home James and achieve very little, it's hard to heap praise on clubs and people you never see doing anything actively, unless you actually bumped into a Sunstate run or one of DVV's you'd never know about it. No internet or magazine notification prior to these events makes it impossible to know that they're even held if they are, no coverage after the events either.

The only problem I see James is we're trying to reach a different number of people with different mediums, it's fine to have a run each month but if no one ever knows about it, it's not really promoting vanning to a larger audience.

Same as the van nats, undoubtably Australia's most poorly advertised and promoted national event of it's kind, I know a lot of people wouldn't even know it exists. Up until several years ago I thought it was dead completely. If the powers to be want it to grow, than by all means step up and promote the event, it's supposed to by the main event of vanning, not a weekend p1ss up for those in the "in crowd".

It'll never get bigger if the only people who know when it's on and what isolated location it's at next is the group that organise it and their selected friends, get it some national exposure, promote the guts out of it, make it the event it deserves to be not a third rate car show/camping trip.

You'll always see it your way mate and I'll see it mine, we may have the same goals in mind but different opinions on how to achieve them, you keep doing things your way, we'll keep doing ours and together I'm sure vanning will get some more exposure between all of our efforts.

Cheers Rob

Hi everyone, I truly think we all need to do what we can to actively promote the sport of all facets of Vanning, the more we promote the more people we attract the more our sport and love of Vanning grows and that is awesome, and by using all methods of media we can get the word out there,word of mouth and local add's alone won't achieve that and Along the way we can all co operate together to iron out issues that need change or updating due to the passing of time. so come on people lets all be brothers and sisters and move the Family of Vanning in a positive forward way. Three thumbsup to Vanning, By John a 70's Vanner....Big Cheers to all John.

Hey John I could not agree more three from an 80's vanner.

Regards Tony.

Now into my 3rd decade of vanning, i think i have seen plenty and have the personal experience with so many people around the country to realize just what is involved in making the sport grow. I have now attended 22 Van Nats straight and have seen all the highs and lows. Promoting the Van Nats is both easy and hard. You having only attended a couple of Nats as an entrant and being relatively new to the Vanning family have missed so much in what past committees have done to promote the Nats. There have been adds in many magazines including street machine mag. Pamphlets are a huge advertising promotional item and for many many years now i have seen organizers promote with them especially in the area of where the Nats are to be held and in surrounding suburbs. It comes down to cost on just how much a committee can promote and how. If pre entry is down then that cuts the funds greatly. Now with the internet it is so much easier to get the word out there but still it comes down to the people who are really committed and say yes i am going to the nats and pay their pre entry or at least put a deposit down. The Van Nats is not poorly promoted and so many people will argue that with you, yes it can always be better but again that depends on the help the committee has and what means are available. You can promote all you like over the internet but if people don't pre enter or attend and sponsorship is poor then it will look to those who did not attend that a poor job was done by the organisers which is really the complete opposite, it is a full 12 month or more in advance job to run a Nats these days.
As you said we can go on for ever and always differ in ideas which seems to be with you and me for some reason. Your way of promoting is good, my way of promoting is good, reguardless of if NSW or QLD people know if DVV have a run on, it won't really matter to them because the promoting happening is where the vans are attending their run, that is how we promote, we get our vans in peoples faces each month and that is what matters to us. As you said we can argue for ever so i will leave it at this, we are all doing our bit to promote Vanning, some do it differently and as long as we are doing it we should all support each other and not think one group is better than another. We are all one group, "Vanners".
80's, 90's and Naughties vanner

James